EP 19: Joel Lalgee, Lead Recruiter at Hirewell
Podcast Transcript
James Mackey 0:00
Hey, and welcome to Talent Acquisition Trends and Strategy, episode 19. Today we are joined by Joel Lalgee.
Joel Lalgee 0:19
Hey, great to be here!
James Mackey 0:21
We're really, really happy to have you on the show and very excited about today. We have some really cool topics to discuss, many of which we have not discussed on the show thus far. So that's gonna be a lot of fun.
But before we jump into it all, if you could share a little bit about yourself with the audience, so we know what perspective you're coming from?
Joel Lalgee 0:42
Yes, absolutely. So I work for a company called Hirewell, a Chicago-based recruitment agency. And the team that I'm on is the HR talent acquisition team. So I focused primarily on filling HR positions of all levels. So I might have an HR coordinator all the way up to VP of HR, and then the same on the TA side. Before that, I spent a number of years actually coaching recruitment teams across the globe on how to develop a content strategy on LinkedIn. And prior to that, I spent about five years in recruitment working for a different agency. And I was actually focused on construction recruiting. So I've been recruiting for about seven years.
Over the last three years, I've really worked pretty hard at developing a personal brand on LinkedIn. And I've seen, follower count views, everything, kind of compound over the year. So I'm at 130,000 followers right now, which is kind of unbelievable. I'm probably most well known now, at least over the last year for posting recruitment memes that hopefully recruiters find relatable. But, really taking a look at some of the situations that we face as recruiters dealing with hiring managers dealing with the recruitment process, and kind of making fun of it, but really bringing light to it as well for candidates and for recruiters.
Passionate about our industry and really excited to be here to chat through some of these topics that we're going to chat about today as well.
James Mackey 2:29
Yes, absolutely. Nick and I have over the past few months going through a lot of your content and trying to understand your formula. So I'm really excited to ask you more questions about that, because it's very impressive the audience that you've built and Nick and I are just like, wow, this is incredible, like, look at the engagement, too. It's not just about like the consistency that you post.
For everybody listening in, Nick is the producer of the show, he's actually here with us as well, and he might be chiming in. We have just been really impressed with you, Joel, the audience that you built, and how relatable your content is, it's just been really cool to see everything that you're doing.
Joel Lalgee 3:12
Awesome. It's just been a kind of crazy journey. And I know, a lot of times people ask questions about the engagement, but it's really just happened organically, which is absolutely fantastic. So happy to share any of that. Any of those insights? And hopefully, people also get a sense that like, I'm just obviously just a regular person. And there's nothing hyper special about me really, so.
James Mackey 3:36
Gotcha. Well, since we're already kind of talking about content, maybe we just start there. Want to get your thoughts on content as a function for talent acquisition, and content development, primarily, I guess, at this point, maybe LinkedIn, but I also know you're on Twitter. And you, you're on some other platforms, possibly, as well.
I'm curious to get your thoughts on the importance of content for recruiters, and talent leaders, and how people and talent functions should be thinking about a content strategy. And how much time do you think people really should be investing in this?
Should everybody be trying to replicate what you're doing? Or is there kind of like another strategy? I'm curious to get your thoughts on that.
Joel Lalgee 4:25
Yes. The first thing to understand, too, with the content that I'm putting out particularly now. Like I said before, I'm recruiting recruiters, recruiting a lot of TA professionals. So in a lot of ways, the people that I'm recruiting are pretty invested in LinkedIn themselves, most recruiters are using LinkedIn, on LinkedIn. Same with HR. So the content that I'm producing is for people who are typically the super users of LinkedIn. Now, I think if I was recruiting software engineers or if I was recruiting tech talent, I don't know whether LinkedIn would actually be my number one platform, I think I'd probably try and look at Reddit, the dark web, or wherever tech guys are hanging out.
So I think that's the first thing to just understand. Is like, I have the perfect storm, like I'm talking about recruiting on what is probably considered the biggest recruiting platform at this moment in time, LinkedIn. And I think in terms of time that other people should spend, like, to me social strategy, you just need to schedule it out. So to me, there was a time when I first started, where I was spending three to four hours a day, that's obviously not something that you can continue to do over time, without losing results in other areas of business.
Now, I'm usually spending about half an hour to an hour a day. And it's not just producing content, it's connecting with people, it's commenting on other people's content, it's really to me just creating connection digitally. That's all I'm doing. That's how I looked at it.
And I think the shift that you have to have is, I think historically, in recruiting, it's all been about the phone and getting people on the phone. And that's still my goal like I probably set up 7 to 10 conversations a day. So I'm on the phone a lot. Instead of using the phone to try and set up phone conversations with cold calls, or even cold emails, the tactic I've decided to take is, to let me make that first connection with somebody online. Whether that's through commenting on their content, whether that's commenting on their comment, whether that's liking something, or whether it's sending them a DM. So I've just had a big mind shift over the last three years. And I think more and more recruiters are getting on under this. But I think if you're going to start this, you probably have to put a little bit more time in the beginning. To me, it's just all about consistency. And that's really where I think I've just set myself apart over the last three years. I've just been extremely consistent with it.
And what I found is, initially when I was putting a lot of time in, it probably built a pretty strong foundation for the future. But, I've also learned that you don't need 1000 likes on a post to generate a sales lead. You'd probably need five likes, and those five people need to be qualified buyers for you. So I think the illusion of big engagement, the illusion of big followers counts, those things don't matter as much.
Really, what matters are the people that you're recruiting or the people that you're looking to work with. Are they engaging with the content? Are you getting in front of them? Are you building familiarity with them? And I think you mentioned it too. For me, the biggest result is actually in my outbound. So when I'm reaching out to recruiters, I get a lot of people reaching back out saying, Hey, I love your content, or I've seen your content. And so it's just an easy way for me to separate myself from other people.
So I think using that same mindset, if you're going after tech talent, you could do the same thing. Find out where these people are engaging, and get involved in those conversations. And the more you do that, the more recognizable you are, whether or not you're producing content or not. It's just starting conversations online at the end of the day, and I think that's almost the mind shift that you have to have. Is just creating conversations in a different way.
James Mackey 8:36
I agree with you. And you're right. I have not been able to scale my content to the extent that you have. I've been able to build up, I think, a decent reputation, I've been posting somewhat consistently over the past, I guess, five years or so.
But you're right. You don't have to have 1000s of engagements in order to create relationships and sales leads or partnerships, or meet really cool people, right? It's just starting to happen now where I feel like I'm starting to get a little bit more, I guess, well known within tech over the past year or two, just based on the number of customers we've worked with, but it's definitely a slightly different angle.
One thing that I did notice is there have been posts where I've gotten the five likes that have converted into new customers and the scale is still impressive even when you get low engagement. You can say something that's still getting in front of a few thousand people even if you're not knocking out the park. And it's not like one of your posts with 8000 likes, even if I'm not achieving that scale, I'm still getting in front of a few thousand people versus if I just do a DM, I'm getting in front of one person. Obviously, I still need to do the individual outreach at times, but the scale is still worth it even if you aren't like a top influencer.
Joel Lalgee 9:59
100%. When I was coaching people, we just broke down the numbers and go, Hey, if you are getting 5000 views a day is probably more achievable than most people think. And if you work that out to, let's say, a week, that's 25,000 views a week, that's 100,000 views in a month, that's a million views a year. And I think the reality is, again, on LinkedIn, the platform as a whole. When you look at things that go viral, a lot of times, it's inspirational stories, it's a lot of fluff.
I think my content is kind of an anomaly because I'm reaching out to recruiters, recruiters are on LinkedIn all the time. So again, if I'm making fun of recruiting, or looking at the process, and kind of making a joke around it, it's gonna go viral, because everybody that I'm trying to reach relates to it. I'm not sure that would happen if I was recruiting mechanical engineers, or if I was recruiting software developers. So to your point, it's not about the amount of likes, it's just about being consistent. And over time, it's compounding.
Really what you want is you want somebody as you reach out to them, they go, Hey, I think I recognize you like I've seen you before, and that within itself, you're going from a cold interaction to a warm interaction. That's all it is. And you're able to do that at scale for free. And, I think what happens though, is a lot of like, coaches, they get obsessed with this, like, inbound, inbound, inbound. And to me in recruiting, it's so competitive, you can't ever just rely purely on inbound.
You've always got to have an outbound strategy, and everything's a balance, and whether it's organic, social, whether it's paid social, you've really got to balance everything out and just realize, there's no like one solution because the buying demographic now has just changed where some people won't pay attention unless you do have a social following. Some people don't care about that and will respond to a cold call. So to say there's just a one-way solution now is just ridiculous.
You really have to diversify your strategy. And, hey, there are times when I'm sending out cold emails. Why? Because not everybody responds to social media posts. So I think the danger is obviously if you're selling like a coaching course, around like inbound marketing, then you've got to be all about that. But again, you should be doing some cold calling. Why not? Why not spend half an hour a day, an hour a day doing some cold calling? Because different people respond to different things at the end of the day.
James Mackey 12:44
Right. Well, that's actually very interesting. That's one of the first things Nick did when he joined was, as our VP of Marketing, he started to open up additional channels. We had been pretty much 100% inbound. He opened up different outreach campaigns on LinkedIn, and through email, we started to explore ads and really started to push for outbound as well. Like we knew that okay, 75% of revenue is coming from word-of-mouth referrals, like, ads, which is typical for services, particularly in our industry, right? But we started playing with all these things.
Nick, how much revenue have we brought in due to the outbound channels we've opened up?
Nick Andrews 13:23
I think, around 1.5
James Mackey 13:26
1.5 million. Yeah. So that's exactly a month. Just experimenting with new channels that we haven't even had time to optimize necessarily.
Nick Andrews 13:36
Right. It's this digital door-knocking concept. It's you just need to start and as Joel said, some people respond to different things. And it's just getting your message out there.
Joel Lalgee 13:51
I think again, what happens is, people, become obsessed with one channel, and then they're like, "oh, this is the golden key", or the silver bullet, whatever you want to call it. But I think diversification, especially right now, in recruiting, it's so competitive, that, you know, it'd be like you would never coach a new recruiter and say, okay, one InMail is going to cut it. It's like, you're probably going to need to say, send that original InMail then a follow up in mail then connect with on LinkedIn, send a couple of DMs, maybe you send a voice note, maybe you send a video now then you're going to send an email like it's that competitive. But I think having content as a framework to start off with is really powerful because I know that when I go to sleep, people are still seeing my content. And that's working for me over and over and over.
And if you're a recruiter like you said, that's just DM-ing or you're just cold calling you never scaling that. I think you are just missing out really and when you look at it, if you only have to do 15 minutes to half an hour a day, and it's free, then why not take advantage of that?
I do think there's just value and just knowing like, obviously, in the future, if you look at teenagers, Gen Z, and people who are coming into the workforce, they are obsessed with social media, and particularly video content. So it's obviously the future. So I think, as recruiters, as people who are an employer brand, it's just understanding that there is a shift of how people interact with brands, how they interact with companies, you've got to understand that. And, again, somebody's just got to try things and just and just figure it out. And I love the fact that you're the CEO of the company, and you're doing it.
I think more CEOs need to be doing it. And what happens is CEOs go, well, we'll hire a social media intern, and they'll do it.
No! Wrong solution!
Maybe they help with organizing things and creating a workflow. But as a CEO, you have the opportunity to get your voice out there and get your brand out there. And that's what people connect with. If I'm looking to work at a company, and I can see that company podcast, and I see the CEO, or I see leadership in the company, I'm much more likely to get a feel for who they are as a company and get excited about them, rather than, looking at executives that are kind of like untouchable.
I think to your point, if you're a leader of a company, or CEO, being authentic with your content is absolutely massive, because in general, work cultures that we've created over the last 20 years are just super fake, like you cannot be yourself and go to work. And now we're transitioning into a time where companies are saying that you can be yourself. And so I think particularly if you're a CEO of a smaller company, a secret weapon is just getting on social media and making videos. It's just, it's massive. It's bigger than people think it is.
James Mackey 17:04
Yes. It is working. I mean, our whole relationship-based sales, our whole content strategy. More and more we're getting leads where, like a VP will reach out to us, of a growth stage company, right? And I'll ask him, like, How'd you hear about us? And they'll say, our CEO told me to reach out to you. And I'll look up the CEO. And I'm like, I don't know who this is. So, something's happening there, the VCs are noticing, or the CEOs are reading the content or some combination, or they're talking to their network, or other CEOs, peer groups, and it's starting to drive more and more business.
And also I like this better than just doing cold outreach. I mean, it's more enjoyable, you are making more natural connections with people that want to engage, it's like, you don't have to appeal to everybody in your industry or everybody in the group that you'd like to connect with. You have to appeal to a decent enough segment of those individuals that share similar values and interests and have similar perspectives and want to engage, right?
Some people, I think, and some recruiters too, don't feel as comfortable posting, right? I think it's like, maybe this perfectionist trap, or they feel like, "oh, do I really have the experience required in order to write content that people are gonna like, and I think they're just overthinking it, right? It doesn't have to be the greatest thing ever written on LinkedIn. Just talk about your own experiences. What are you up to? What challenges are you working through? What lightbulb moments have you had throughout your career, just make it personal, right? And it's just about your own experience. That's okay, too.
I don't think people actually even have to just write content based on the market they want to target. If that feels like too heavy of a lift, it's better for them to write about anything, and then about nothing, it's still a brand-building motion to write about their interests or things they're passionate about, versus just, being silent and not engaging, right? So I hope that more people will just start to be willing to put themselves out there. I know, it can be scary, but it doesn't have to be this insane, intense, even hyper-consistent strategy. It's still better than nothing to just get out there sometimes. Right?
Joel Lalgee 19:36
Yes. And I think, what happens and I've seen this because I used to coach people. We had an eight-week boot camp where we ran them through the basics, ran them through how to do some basic copywriting, how to create a video, and what kind of topics to post about. And I would see it like people get really excited at the beginning and then it was like the consistency afterward would drop off. Because I think it's just prioritizing and just understanding that at the end of the day, it's something that's not going away. It's like you said you can overthink it. But I'm living proof.
I started off as you know, as a talent acquisition consultant. So I was literally new into the recruiting game and I just started talking about how to create catchy subject lines to get a prospect interested or how to engage with a candidate in DMs to make it personalized, I just started talking about things that I was thinking about. And, people resonated with it. I started having conversations. So, yes, I totally agree with you. I think people do overthink it.
And like you said to. I took the whole of last week off without posting. Two years ago, I would have never done that, because I was posting three times a day. But now I just realized this isn't going away. And so the strategy to me, it's like, a 20, year, 30 years, 40-year career strategy.
Even with a podcast, we were talking about this before. Like 90% of podcasts, don't make it through 50 episodes. And it's because you're doing it to get a result that you think has to happen overnight, instead of realizing "hey, maybe I have to do 1000 episodes of this podcast. Then you take the pressure off, and it's not about one episode or one post. It's just about being present. And people see you and then get to know you. And I haven't even been to in-person events. But I guarantee you if I went to an in-person recruiting event in the UK, in the US, and I'm like, Hey, it's Joel Lalgee, people will be like, Oh, man, I've seen your stuff. Like it happens all the time.
Again, even without the virality and a lot of likes, the engagement, that would still happen, because lots of people see it. And that's the joy of social and I love it. I love this stuff. And I think as recruiters, again, it's just prioritizing it. Even at our company, they're some of our top billers that really don't do anything on social media. But it doesn't mean that you shouldn't still be creating. And I'm just like, if you guys did put out content, you'd probably get more results on top of the building.
James Mackey 22:31
Right. It's also like a long-term play, right? Just having that brand is an incredible value. But I think that more of these brands, like the influencer brands on LinkedIn are going to start to be monetized. More and more, I think we're still kind of in the early stages of that, but 5, 10 years from now, I think there's going to be significant value for content creators that excel on this platform. I mean, there probably already is, you know better than I do. But I assume that that's a trend that's going to continue and there are going to be more ways to leverage that community that people are working hard to build right now on LinkedIn.
Joel Lalgee 23:06
Yeah, I think like, for me, the ROI has been simple. For example, I quit my job right at the beginning of the pandemic. Well, I was about six months into the pandemic, and I was just working at an agency that just was not the type of agency I wanted to be working at. But obviously, this was like six months into the pandemic. So there just weren't a lot of jobs. Quit my job, and started a business and I was able to produce revenue right away, because of the brand. You know, it was just like, hey, I'm open for business. The next thing I know, I'm getting leads, and the business was helping recruitment companies with content. So yeah, it kind of just made sense. And this was again, about two years ago now.
Then, kind of quickly realized "okay, maybe this isn't what I'm as passionate about, like, I enjoy creating content for myself, not necessarily trading it for other people. And so then I got that coaching gig, but the coaching gig came because the CEO knew who I was because of the content. Did that for a while, I was like, okay, coaching is fun like this, you know, I went through a couple of changes with life, like having a new baby, I was like, I needed something a little bit more secure.
And so I started looking at my network and going to what recruitment agencies I wanted to work with, I got three interviews with zero applications, got three offers on the table, and I picked what I wanted, and every single person that I interviewed with, they're like, Oh, this is great. Like you have an intangible thing here. You have something which most recruiters don't have. But I believe that even if I didn't have a big follower account, the same thing would be said because there's an intangible benefit that comes with this brand recognition.
And now I look at our internal hires for HireWell, for example, pretty much let's say 50 to 60% of people we hire will say things like, Oh, I've been following Joel for a while, or I heard of him. I think that is massive!
And there's nothing stopping anybody else from doing that, at the end of the day, and I think the only thing that stops people is things like, what are other people gonna say? Or I don't want to put myself out there, I'm gonna get haters. And it's like, do I get people commenting negatively on my posts? Of course, I do. I used to get really impacted by it. But now it's just like, who cares? Like I get if you do cold calls you're gonna get more views doing cold calls, and you will post social media like people hate getting
Nick Andrews 25:35
So true. As a marketer, I have been called every nasty mean name. And there just comes a point where you just say to yourself " I don't care. I have a mission. And I'm going to carry that mission out. And you know, I was called the dumbass just two days ago. So exactly. It just happens all the time. It comes with the territory, and you just gotta keep grinding for exact.
Joel Lalgee 25:59
I mean, imagine if you sent out an email campaign, and then you just quit because somebody was like, you know, this is the worst email I've ever seen. It's like, oh, yeah,
Nick Andrews 26:07
I get that all the time. This email is too long and terrible. Lately, I've heard everything you can imagine.
Joel Lalgee 26:16
But the funny thing is, I've seen people actually get on some of my content and get really heated or just say something. And then I get a DM a couple of days later and it's like it's totally not me, I don't know why this triggered me so much. And I think at the end of the day, it's just people, nothing you can do about it. But I'm so thankful I didn't let hate or fear, even just like you said before, you're talking about impostor syndrome, like, oh, man, what do I have to say? And it's like, okay, I'm not playing, like, if you look at on social media, like, I'm not playing the role of some CEO, and I'm not like, pretending to be something I'm not. And I think that can be that pressure. When people are starting, they feel this pressure, they gotta be this thought leader, or they gotta be something. But again, it's people who just connect with real people. And, you know, you get called out real quick if you're not being real. But, authenticity is huge.
And then you get into sales meetings with people who've seen my content. They're like, Oh, my God, I feel like I know you. And I'm like, that never happens. When I call gold people, it was always like having a twist and arm and be like, come on, come work with us, we'll give you a discounted rate, like, I promise you will produce that changes, like when people know you, because then they're like, oh, I want to work with you. Because like you said, if you talk about things you like, if you talk about things that you know, you're going to attract the people that you probably would work with? Well, and the reality is like in sales, some people want to work with you, some people just won't, and you will never convince the people that want to work with you. So like, if you do convince them, they usually have the worst relationships anyway. So it's like, you kind of use it as a magnet to attract the things, you know, the people that you're going to relate to,
James Mackey 28:07
Right. I mean, honestly, sometimes the difficulty of the sales process correlates to the difficulty of the customer. Sometimes when things are going easy from the first interaction, and it just kind of clicks, it's sometimes the best business relationship. So I agree that it's very intuitive of you to notice that. But I think I completely agree it's, yeah, and it's like, you don't always have to force, you don't have to appeal to everybody. It won't happen, first of all, and it's just not something that you need to do to be successful.
Joel Lalgee 28:43
Over the last two years, in particular, like, the golden silver lining of the pandemic, from a business development view is, particularly in recruiting is you now can find clients all around the US, even around the world, you can work globally because people have adapted and you can do zoom meetings. So if you think that like, yeah, okay, if your territory was just a little, you know, even a city, I mean, obviously, there are lots of businesses in the city, but let's say your geography was just one location, okay, then you don't have, you know, maybe you need to think about that more. But nowadays, nationwide, there's so much business that you can attract in the business. And I think that's why, as an organization, trying to get other people in the organization to post content, as well, is really important. Because, again, if they're talking about things that they like, it's going to be different than things that you like, or things that you know about. So you're going to attract different people.
And to me, that is the whole key, as a company as a team. How do you get the team engaged? How do you encourage them to produce content? And I think it goes back to what you said like you don't put pressure on it, and you find the people who are naturally wanting to do it, you encourage them, and then hopefully the people who are a little bit more reserved about it, they see the fruits from that, you know, from putting themselves out there, and they start to get involved as well. And I think, going forward, like employers and brands, again, it's almost like a superpower that you have against big companies.
Because what happens with really big companies is their brand is so ingrained, and they like to police their brand, smaller companies, like you don't have that limitation, you can let your people be the people. And that's huge to me, that's a huge thing. That's underutilized. And, you know, especially if you're trying to compete with big brands on pay, and things like pay where you just can't compete with them. I think smaller brands and smaller companies can start to leverage content to really get the culture out. Because typically cultures at smaller companies are different from cultures at larger companies where everything's really policed. And, you know, if you're working for Amazon, like, you've got to be careful what you say, because you don't want to taint the Amazon brand. So
James Mackey 31:04
That's true. Smaller companies can be a little bit more nimble. And they don't have to go through all these constraints of getting stuff approved to post online and do all these different things.
I know, we have to stop before or at 11 am. So we have a few other topics. I don't honestly think we're gonna be able to get into all of them, maybe we should do a part two if you're open to it. We can schedule another podcast. But you know, we do have a few minutes.
So there's just one other topic we can just kind of touch on real quick, you know, recruiting for recruiters, I just from I want, like, if we could just use some quick bullets on from an employer perspective, what are three things that employers are a few things that have to be three exactly, but a few things that employers need to do in order to attract and retain top recruiting talent? And then on the flip side, what are three things that recruiters should be evaluating? Right? Like, can we just do some quick kind of bullets, we could start on the employer side and finish off on what recruiters should be betting. Essentially?
Joel Lalgee 32:14
Yeah, you know, to me right now, like there's just a shortage of recruiters that are specialized in the industry. So what I mean by that is a lot of the startups that we work with, they're really, really, really caught up with finding people who have worked in startups before, because obviously, in a startup environment, you've got to wear lots of hats, you know, not necessarily even supported. So you've got to be really nimble, you've got to be able to think on your feet, you've got to be able to understand that you might be working on a rack for a week, and then you go to the hiring manager, and they've completely changed what they wanted. Right?
So that's the ideology going, Okay, we need someone who's used to that type of environment. But to me, it's, looking past that and going, can I find people who are maybe at larger companies, or maybe they're recruiting in a different industry, and looking for those people who are still working in fast-paced environments that still have elements of that startup culture? How do we bring those recruiters into tech and into the startup world?
So I think, for a lot of startups that are really finding it hard to hire recruiters, you have to start thinking outside of the box. And at times, it means you might have to invest in training or invest in better tools. So thinking outside of the box, when it comes to finding recruiters is huge, I think, understanding that, right now, most recruiters really do want to work remotely like there are some that want to work hybrid, but you have to be able to, and you have to be able to offer fully remote right now. I think if you don't do that, you've just limited the talent pool to that geography and you make the work 10 times more.
I think, setting up pay structures, I think, too, is something that perhaps could change. I just think like with startups, like we can afford the base a lot of times and like the overall comp, but then getting creative with compensation and offering incentives based on performance can be huge. So I think just understanding that, again, that remote work pays really, really well. Those are things that recruiters are expecting. And I think if you're looking at a rack and it's been open for a long time, you just have to be really quick to realize like, okay, we're doing something wrong here. And we just need to approach it differently.
So, those would be my big tips for employers. And then I think from a recruiting standpoint, like if you're looking for a new gig right now, obviously the market has been really really hot for recruiters over the last 18 months. I want to say it does seem like it may be cooling off a little bit. So I think if you're evaluating a new opportunity, and I posted about this the other day, it's asking really tough questions. It's asking like, when's the last time you evaluated your growth plans for 2022? It's asking how many racks each recruiter was working on, like, because a lot of internal teams if like, they really, really beefed up their internal recruiting teams. But if the growth plan changes halfway through the year, you know, if you're the last recruiter on a team of 10, and each person is working on two to three racks, it's not job security.
So I think he's just asking those really tough questions in an interview. And it's not just being blinded by a high salary, you know, and just going, okay, besides the salary, like, how big is the team, what's the turnover in the team. And then also, a big thing I see a lot of recruiters getting caught up in is, they go, Oh, I love the leader, I love the talent leader that's there. And that's the reason I want to work. And right now, in this market, it's not uncommon to start a job. And then three months later, the TA director leaves or the chief people officer leaves. So I think you just have to keep in the back of your mind, like, not to get too caught up on like, Oh, I just love the team. Because suddenly, if that team switches, or there's a change or reorg, then go for companies that you're really passionate about, and you're excited about.
And again, with the money, like, yes, you want to get paid what you're worth, but just be smart about it. And just think down the line, like ultimately, if you're especially if you're in internal recruiting, you're a cost center. So if the growth plans change, and suddenly the growth plans have been reduced by 80%. And you're the most expensive cost center, you are not going to last. So again, it's like you want to get paid what you're worth, but just think about it, look at the business, understand the business that you're in, like, and obviously just understand to like, nothing is 100% secure. Like we should know that by now. Like that is no 100% Sure thing.
James Mackey 37:13
And this ties back to why recruiters should be building personal brands, and seeing content, right? No better job security than having a wonderful network of bright people in your industry that you can call on.
Joel Lalgee 37:26
Yeah, and set up a business account man, like if your recruiter set up a business account, because then if something happens, you have you if you have a business setup, then you can work as a contract recruiter, and you can just have more control. Like I just, I think really any professional right now should just set up a business account, have a business account, because then if you get, you know, an employee or you know, there's a change, you can start offering your services.
With the internet, how it's set up today, I mean, if you're going freelance is easier than it's ever before, and I think that you know, I could see it in the next three to five years more, especially in younger people just going with like the contract route and going, Okay, I've got these services, I got these skills, I'm going to contract myself out, recruiters should be a no brainer. I mean, you lose your job as a recruiter, go to contract, you know, offer your offer, hey, I noticed you've got 2000 open jobs and you got a team of 10. You know, I'll work for 50, 80 100 $ an hour, you should be able to start thinking like that. It's great. You know, that's obviously career security as well.
James Mackey 38:31
That's really good advice. So I know that everybody listening in is going to be able to take that to heart and learn something from our conversation today. And I look, I think there's a lot more we should be talking about and a lot more value we can add to the community. So if you're up for it, I'd love to do part two sometime in the next few weeks, and it's done on the show.
Joel Lalgee 38:51
Let's do it!
James Mackey 38:53
Well, thank you. Thank you for joining us today. This was a really very valuable episode. So I appreciate you coming to the show. Everybody else tuning in, thank you for joining us, and take care!