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EP 3: Steve Cadigan, LinkedIn's First Chief HR Officer and Founder - Cadigan Talent Ventures

Podcast Transcript

James Mackey  0:00  

Hi, and welcome to episode three of the Talent Acquisition trends and Strategy Podcast. Today we're joined by Steve Cadigan. Steve, thanks for joining us.


Steve Cadigan  0:19  

Hey, it's great to be here.


James Mackey  0:21  

Absolutely. Would you mind sharing a little bit about your background and what you're working on right now?


Steve Cadigan  0:26  

Sure, James. My background has been mostly about 99% of my working life has been in the talent world. I've worked in about six different industries. I started as a recruiter in fashion then became an HR generalist and insurance, got into high tech in the 90s on semiconductors, and then moved from that to Cisco Systems. In the hot rising you boom of the late 90s, which was really fun. And then bubble burst, and it wasn't so fun. We moved from hiring to firing. 


I had a chance during that run to live and work in Asia, I was the Head of HR for Cisco Asia for a couple of years. And when that six-year run at Cisco ended, I moved to Canada. And it was the first chance for me to be a Head of Human Resources for a Fortune 500 Company, which was great was back in the semiconductor world, PMC Sierra 


Had three kids during that run in Singapore and Canada. So one, a Singaporean, and two Canadians, made in America, but born in those countries and moved back to California in 2008, I think it was and took a role with Electronic Arts. They were going through a new CEO who wanted to be very acquisitive. And then the second mortgage crisis hit and my job got really less interesting than it was. 


And I decided to listen to other opportunities. And then I was offered the first chief HR officer role at LinkedIn, and was there for periods of, you know, massive, massive growth from 400, to about 4000 people in just under four years. We went IPO, It was great. And I left in 2013. 


And for the last nine years, I've been really, on my own, doing a lot of thinking about how to help leaders and companies build great talent strategies. So a lot of that is around the world of recruiting and employer brand and called building great cultures. And it's been awesome. So that's what I've been doing. 


To sort of the capstone of my time, being independent, I published a book last year called Workquake, leveraging the aftershocks of COVID-19 to create a better working model. And that sort of brings me to what I'm really focused on today, which is, I feel over the last decade, it became increasingly apparent to me that both employers and employees were getting more and more frustrated with the model of work that we're having. 


And what I tried to do with my book is reveal why I think that's broken, what I think are some really different approaches we can take to find more meaning for both employers and employees, and different ways of creating value. And that's what I'm helping, you know, organizations think through today. I spent a lot of time speaking and teaching at school conferences around the world, which I love doing. And like you I ventured into the podcast universe when COVID hit has a podcast series. And it's been a really fun learning journey, right? With all this new I've never had a soundboard before these headphones are microphones and now this is our world, right?


James Mackey  3:38  

Absolutely.Thanks again for being here. And, I've really enjoyed my conversations with you over the past couple of years and guiding my own development while I'm taking on different strategic roles with growth stage companies. So this is definitely something I'm very excited about. I've been looking forward to it for a few weeks now. 


I think to start us off, it would be great to hear from you. And I know you're working with a lot of startups, a lot of growth stage organizations, specifically getting a little deeper into some of the challenges that they're seeing right now when it comes to attracting talent, retaining talent, and ensuring that they have the best-fit talent on their team to scale their organizations. What are some of the biggest challenges you're seeing right now?


Steve Cadigan  4:20  

I'm seeing the growing incapacity of organizations to find what they think they need and to find fully qualified talent. You've been in the industry, I've been in this industry of trying to hire technology workers for the last decade or so. It is just so competitive. 


And I think that many organizations that I'm talking to today in our domains where they've never had to compete like we've had to in tech for years, right? We've seen every company is experiencing higher turnover than they're used to. Not just people leaving, but people taking a different direction, you know, they're not going to do the same job somewhere else, they're actually going to move from a sales role to a nonprofit role or something like that. 


And the pandemic really serves to accelerate how people think differently around work and their relationship to their lives. In general, it's a beautiful thing for an individual to revisit their whole life circumstances, it's scary as hell if you're trying to build a company and everyone that your employees like thinking about the world differently, right? 


And so that, that's a moment that I think a lot of organizations are challenged with, is that I think they're also challenged with, what skills are the skills I should be hiring and growing, because the new technologies and the new platforms being developed, continually put pressure on, you know, making sure that you're trying to be as ahead of the curve as you can be? Right. 


You and I've had really good conversations around this, like, how do we create, you know, solve recruiting, but also address diversity challenges, right, and in our portfolio? And so, I think everyone wants to hire people really, really quickly, and they're learning, that's not so easy. So that's probably some of the biggest challenges I'm thinking about. And honestly, James, if I, if I peel it back, you know, when I'm having these conversations, I'll be saying, I've got a big recruiting problem. And this is more so less than the startups but more in the medium-sized to large size enterprises. 


The conversation goes something like this, Steve, I got a recruiting problem. I said, How do you know? Well, we got all these wrecks, we can't fill it. I said, Well, have you got an internal talent management system? No. Okay, so how do you know that you've got a recruiting problem? If you don't already know all the skills of the people in your company? Like, how can you even tell me you have a problem if you don't know what skills you have? Or how you can translate or leverage skills from different parts of your company in different, you know, areas. And nobody's at fault here, but we just never have looked at that, because we haven't faced the competitive pressure that we have today. 


When I'm trying to help organizations recognize that they may not have a recruiting problem. Yes, you have a recruiting problem compared to how fast you're able to fill positions before. But I think the bigger way of framing this challenge is that it's a creativity challenge. 

So for example, I was talking to one client the other day, and they say, Hey, you know, we got all these open wrecks, and this is really a problem. 

I said, Well, why don't you hire contractors to do some of that job while you're looking for a full-time job?'' And by the way, a contractor is the greatest interview process you could possibly have to see if they're good. And if they like working, they're not like, oh, no, see, if we can't do that. It's gonna really wreck our culture, you know, all these mercenaries, running around short-timers, not our culture. To which I said, Well, how's your culture when five people are doing the job at 20? Because you can't fill your wrecks? How's that culture working out for you? Because people are burning out? Like, which trade-off do you want to make? 


And so for me, that's why I say it's a creativity problem, like, you may have people from other parts of the company that can do work that you don't think they can, because you're just not aware. And secondly, why don't you reconsider that work can be done in different ways other than having a full-time employee do it? Right.


James Mackey  8:34  

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Are you seeing in terms of one of the reasons why companies are hesitant to bring It on contractors is maybe they don't have the right processes and outcomes outlined for each specific function where maybe it's they just don't have the right infrastructure built out to where people can come in on a contracting basis and be successful? 


Or what do you think is the primary reason why leaders and hiring managers don't feel like contractors can be a better solution to their problem?


Steve Cadigan  9:06  

There are probably a few things. I think you highlight a really interesting one, which I think is a muscle that most organizations will really benefit from in bringing in contractors, which is: if you're bringing in a contractor, you need to be able to explain what the work needs to that needs to be done quickly to somebody, right, like you don't want to hire a contractor is going to take six months to teach how to do the job, right. 


So what that's doing is putting pressure on organizations to maybe revisit jobs, or maybe re-engineer how jobs are structured. And in a more fluid world of work, where people are leaving organizations faster than ever we're seeing this all over every geography in every industry is experiencing higher turnover. You need to be able to onboard people faster. 


So contractors are great, a great place to try that because it's a really good, you know, safe environment where someone from the outside comes in and says how fast can we get this person making an impact? And so that's probably one of the most interesting and opportunistic areas of leveraging the contractors. 


But to answer your question more specifically, so why aren't more people doing this, it's just a mental model that we have where I feel as an organism, just speaking, as if I'm just, you know, corporate America, I only feel that I can create value if I own an employee, and they work for me dedicated full time that I'm uncomfortable, someone may have other clients, someone may have other priorities, and I won't be number one to them. 


And I think if we've learned anything in the pandemic, the workforce has spoken and said, my freedom, autonomy, independence is more important than anything, I would rather have that. And now I will quit before I go back to the office where I'm more distracted and more bothered. And, I don't see the reason that I can be more productive there when I would just show you for two years, I can be more productive at home. And I mean, I'm not talking about every job, because a lot of jobs were frontline, and couldn't do that. But for the places many knowledge workers who can, and did work from home. 


Why are we asking them to go back, which is another big, you know, question mark and challenge for organizations to deal with? I mean, I don't know about you, but all the other recruiters I talked to, when you say, hey, what's the one thing candidates are saying today that they didn't say three years ago? First question, Can I do this job remotely? Maybe they don't necessarily want to do it all the time. But that's sort of a litmus test of how evolved? Is the company with their talent strategy thinking, you know, are they comfortable with that?


James Mackey  11:43  

And I think a lot of companies are making the mistake of thinking, well, this is a candidate market, it's going to shift back, it always does. And so we don't actually really need to commit to these changes, or even if we do it's just gonna be on a temporary basis. And next year, we're gonna, we're gonna go back to the office, but I think they're missing the point. 


The point is, that you want the best fit individuals to be on your team. And you have to create compelling employment opportunities for them, whether it be contractor, full-time. Because at the end of the day, your team is going to thrive and succeed when you have the best-fit people engaged in that they want to work with you. 


So I think that businesses are, to an extent almost over-optimized toward revenue functions and investing and customer journeys, but they're not necessarily slowing down and investing on employee journey or contractor journey and thinking about what types of experiences and outcomes are we investing in optimizing and to create for, for employees that are working with our team?


Steve Cadigan  12:42  

Well said, James, well said absolutely. And, I like to highlight and underline what you just said. I mean, I think this is the biggest question I ask when I get an audience of non-HR people and CXOs is "okay, how do you guys create value? And they say, well, with our people, I said, Okay, that's the most important dimension, and, an element in your organization to create value? Yep. People. Okay. 


So did you spend more money on your people systems than you did on your accounting? Or your CRM? Nope. Okay, is it the first thing you talk about in every business meeting? Is it related to how we can build a great team? How can we thrive as we unlock magic in our employees? Nope. So the last thing on the agenda is most companies that I work for, so why is that? 


This is the most important lever for you to be successful. It's the least invested system, it's the lowest priority on your business, you know, operating tasks, why is that? And so, you know, when I go in and say, they said, we have a recruiting problem, I go, Okay, well, where's that on your list of priorities? Right? Like, or if I'm negotiating with somebody else negotiator, they say, Hey, can you come and talk to us about the future work? It's the number one concern of all our leaders and our board of directors. And so yeah, I'm happy to be like, what's your budget? And like, no, no, can you just come in and talk about like, for free, the most important thing and your company? 


I think we've always had the ability to talk about people who are number one. But unfortunately, most of us have worked in a few companies where we really saw what that looks like, when people are really, operationally number one. And I had one company, my last one that I worked for LinkedIn, that really broke the mold on that. 


And was the first thing we talked about in every meeting, every company all-hands meeting, building a world-class team, it wasn't the sales revenue. It wasn't the new products that we were introducing. It wasn't our acquisition strategy. It was to build a world-class team first. And if we had a problem that wasn't tracking, well, we never got to the other stuff, because the other stuff didn't matter if we didn't have good leaders, you know, good development strategies in place, right? And unfortunately, most of us don't get to see what that can look like. And as you say, We talked about the targets, we talked about the quarterly numbers, and so forth, and we just rode the bike.


James Mackey  15:06  

Yes, we're seeing a lot for growth stage organizations, we're seeing a lot more benefits and perks that are catering toward employers really starting to own at least the ones that are winning right now are owning the fact that employees and contractors are going to hold them accountable to help them get the most out of life, not just professionally, but personally.


We're seeing more emphasis on PTO, we're seeing minimum PTO policies become more common, you know, it's what good is an unlimited policy or a four-week PTO policy if nobody feels empowered to take it. So we're starting to see more minimum PTO policies, and we're starting to see companies understand that part of the content that they need to produce on social as well as on careers pages needs to be centered around capacity planning for certain functions. 


I mean, you know, even if you have a minimum policy, but you don't have the right capacity planning on a functional level, to ensure that people can actually take time off, it can be difficult to, so we're starting to see a bigger emphasis there. We're starting to see more companies, some of the top companies offer more holidays off, recharge days, and mental health days, and we're starting to see these types of benefits come in as well. 


Because again, the expectation from employees is no longer just how much money am I going to make? What's my title? Where am I going to be in three years? It's also what this experience is going to be. And how, how does it interact? And how can it integrate with my personal life and my personal goals? And again, we're seeing more of this, but it's still not a lot. I mean, we're seeing, I wouldn't say the top 90th percentile companies doing it. 


But a lot of companies are still missing the mark here. And they're, they're stuck in that old way of thinking of like, oh, this is a candidate marketing market, it's going to come back around, we're not going to need this, but they just don't understand that it doesn't matter. Even if you're in an employer-driven market, A players that best fit individuals are always going to have the most options.


Steve Cadigan  17:12  

Let me rephrase what you just said, James. And I hope our audience really listened. So you captured that really, really well. We're seeing the personalization of work. 


We'd seen before the pandemic, no cafeteria benefit plans. Rarely is someone raising their hand to say, "Wait for a second, my colleague has five kids, and you're going to cover the older kids for free on their medical plan, I have no kids. And I'm not getting an offset. They're like, that doesn't feel equitable, you know, I'm happy for my colleague and their medical care. But my circumstances are different. And I would appreciate maybe a little more contribution to my 401k. You know, so that when I went in, if I do have children, you know, that I can have the ability to pay for their college or whatever it is, you know. And so, that personalization now has moved from benefits. 


And now it's so interesting to me, because the benefit, what's in that package now is moved to I want more freedom and more discretionary time to do what I want, when and where I want. I want you to trust me more "I agree with you on the unlimited PTO. Like, that's as unlimited as the trust you have with your boss. Right? What do we do? Why do we do that? And a lot of people are really uncomfortable asking for it. Right? And so you look around and say, you know, how much do you think I could get away with or, you know, what's really the Okay, number, right. And that's really, that's hard. 


I've broken more policies, as an HR person than I've made and feel very, very proud. And I think that's a signature of my career path if you look behind me because I feel like we've over-tried to prescribe every circumstance to avoid some outcome. Rather than just say, let's just address the issues when they come and try to be as fair and transparent as we can, doesn't mean making the employees happy all the time. It just means trying to have some sort of fair transparent decision-making practice here. But that's not going to stop.


We're going to continue to see the personalization of people you know. What days do you work? When do you work? Where do you work from? What is your hybrid schedule? Maybe we're seeing some companies now Gosh, who was? I forget who said "We can have your base be x and your bonus be a target of this or we can take the bonus and put it right into your base?  What do you want? You're gonna have more potential upside, if you have the bonus separate, but you also have the potential for downside, right? 


It's like companies say, do you want options or RSUs? If you get options you get more but there's no downside risk. You get RSUs you get less but there is zero downside risk. And so I think we're gonna see a continuation of that now. It's managers' nightmare come true. But everyone's needs are different and what the pandemic different people said. It made it clear like, No, these are new things that are important to me, you know, and that's a really great thing. It's putting enormous pressure on organizations. But Canva, look what Canvas has done. 


Canva sort of threw it down and said, "Okay, we're letting our teams decide where and when they work. We're not going to one size fits all this right? Which what you're speaking about is a one-size-fits-all, it's over. Like if that's what you're trying to build towards. It just doesn't work. 


I remember one time, I was throwing out this notion of a more flexible benefits package to an audience of HR People in Seattle. And one woman raised her hand and said, hey, that's really unfair. And I said, Well, let me ask you a question. Do you pay everyone the same in your company? She says, No. I said, Well, that's really unfair, I go, you're already making variability in how you reward people. So this is just a little more of a natural extension of that.


James Mackey  20:58  

A quick follow-up question on that. So flexible benefits packages at scale for mid-market enterprise companies? How do you really make that scalable and deliver on that? 


Because I could only imagine from an operational perspective, that is going to require a lot more heavy lifting. Is it as simple as just saying, you just need more investment? And HR, you need a larger team to manage that? Or do you recommend specific technologies or processes that help companies implement this strategy?


Steve Cadigan  21:29  

So what I would do is, it's a great question. I would elevate the conversation to include everything, say, Okay, do we believe that personalization of work is happening and that we would benefit? Being able to attract greater people and maybe get them to stay longer? If we did that? Yes. Okay. 


So if we don't do that, people may leave sooner. And we may not get high-quality people if we don't offer more flexibility. What's the cost of people leaving sooner? What's the cost of, more recruiting budgets, more empty jobs, you know, jobs left open, because we can't fill them, you know, and so forth. And so I would say, in terms of looking at as a benefit-cost, that is not the full way that you should be measuring, is this a worthy investment for you to do more? 


And then what I would say is, and there are lots of different organizations, I can consult on, on doing stuff like this, I mean, Netflix has already been doing this for over a couple of decades now, where they say, we're valuing your job, James, all in your job is worth about $320,000. You decide, if you want to take some of that money and buy some Netflix shares, you decide if you want to take some of that money and buy top up on your benefit plan, you decide, because we don't know what's important to you, you do? Or you can take this, you know, a wheelbarrow full of cash, what do you want? Right? 


What I would say is, you know, come up with a number that's, that's based on data based on some of the research of your benefits consultants and say, what is a reasonable number that we think someone can draw from? And then what are the choices that they make, and then just build a website where people can sort of decide, and then figure out how it works? The danger or potential unintended consequence of this is what happened at Netflix. 


And that is two people doing the same job. Having vastly different outcomes with their choices, okay. So for example, you decide you want to double down on LinkedIn on sorry, on Netflix shares. And so you allocate a lot of your money, we have the same number, whether it's 330,  320, whatever it was, I used. You say I want 50k to buy Netflix shares, and I say, Oh, the stocks are definitely going to come down, I'm going to hold off on that. I've got six kids, I'm going to go and buy a bunch more benefits stuff. All the Netflix stock goes through the roof. And now your package is way more than mine. But I made that choice, you know. And so as a company, now, I'm worried about Steve, because Steve didn't make the choice to. James is showing up in his Lamborghini and bought the vacation, home, and Tahoe. And now that's a problem, potentially, you know. And so, that's the dark side of choice is different outcomes for people. Right, which is super interesting.


James Mackey  24:18  

Yeah, I think that's incredibly insightful. I'm glad we were able to dive into that a little bit deeper. But I still feel like people would prefer to be able to make those choices overall, there are going to be cases, potentially something like that occurs, but I think, by and large, the positive outweighs the potential downside


Steve Cadigan  24:35  

For sure. Here's how I look at this, James. And this applies to recruiting, applies to talent strategies, applies to benefits. 


We are in an era of experimentation. We've got to try new stuff, you know, because we know the domain that we used to know which is higher people who are more qualified than they are people stay longer than they are today. We know those things are changing. So we're going to have to revisit 


And I find the fear and the resistance to that is higher than I think it should be right now, when we should, you know, just try to do it. And here's the thing. If you're hiring knowledge workers, particularly software developers, this works for software developers, because software developers create through AB testing, they're used to experimenting, right? 


And so they will value you, if you say, Hey, we're gonna try this bonus plan, it may not have the outcome that we think it does. And if it doesn't have a favorable outcome, well, then we reserve the right to get smarter, and we'll adjust it. And I think that's about trust and transparency. And, letting people know, like, Hey, we're not perfect, but we're going to try to be and we're going to, you know, admit when we're wrong, you know? Sure.


James Mackey  25:43  

Yeah. And I think this would also be a good time, I know, we have about probably 5,10 minutes left. So I really wanted to touch on a subject that really resonates with me, something that I heard you talk about a couple of years back when you're talking about retention, talking about the average tenure of employees. 


You had what I think a lot of people in HR or talent acquisition would consider kind of like a borderline radical perspective on average tenure, and how companies should talk about tenure and think about tenure, when they're hiring and looking at people's background, and weighing previous 10 years into the equation if they want to move forward with a hire. I was hoping you could just share with us your general philosophy on tenure. And we could riff on that for a few minutes. 


Steve Cadigan  26:26  

This is a hard topic for people today because tenure is declining radically. I mean, the median tenure for people between 25 and 35, in the United States is 2.8 years. That means half that number is less, okay, half the demographic of people that age. And so I'm not thrilled about that trend, but everyone I talked to doesn't think it's going to change. 


So what that really means is, you know, let's look at organizations who don't have high tenure and what they're experiencing, and can we learn some things. And if we look at this, just take some really big brands and technology, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, Airbnb, Oracle, those companies, none of them have a median tenure over two years, okay? None of them. And look at the valuation, look at the profits. Look at the creativity. 


And so listen, I'm the first person who says, I want to keep my best people as long as I can. But insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different outcome. And we all know, people are not going to stay as long. So there is a big value in new people and new ideas and new energy coming in and new ways of solving problems. 


And I think what I'm trying to help people understand right now is, I think maybe we've overvalued tenure. And if you have benefits that reward people, just for time, they're not outcomes of being there. I think that's a missed opportunity. And, in Silicon Valley, we don't have 10 Year celebrations, we have 10 months, you're still here. Oh, my God, can I get you a Starbucks? You know, it's, it's like that it's that crazy. But let me share the last observation here. And then I'll turn it back over to you. 


Let me just ask you what I hope is a hypothetical question. When you think of the world, and the one geography in the world that has the greatest innovation, the most number of unicorns, the most number of intellectual property produced the most number of highly successful highly valued companies, what part of the world is that? Silicon Valley. Okay? 


Is it a coincidence or not that it's also the area that has the highest turnover of any part of the world? So that's sort of like my drop mic moment, the most fluid part of the world is also the part of the world producing the most disproportionately successful outcomes to a 10x magnitude, right? So what's going on there, people are moving, and networks are growing. This is the thing that I say, like, someone moves, they grow their network, that's good for them, maybe not so good for you if they left, but it's really good for the ecosystem. 


And so there's power with people changing and iterating ideas and building relationships, and building trust in that domain in the community, not just in your organization. So I'm trying to help people, like, get a little more comfortable. It's not all bad, that people are leaving. But wouldn't you all want to work for someone that cares about you for your whole career, not just when they work for you? That's another part, right? It's like, yeah, it's someone who cares about me for my whole career. Okay, well then stop what I call the Tony Soprano School of HR, which only cares about you when you work here. When you quit, you're dead to me. That's so short-sighted because you've got more alumni than ever. And you should curate it and nurture it. Right? 


So it's a little bit radical. It's a little bit crazy. I've had people say to me after I tell them that like Who invited you here, like, we thought that was taboo and that we could never talk about that but we have to talk about it because it's a moment we have a moment now. After The pandemic to create better talent strategies. Let's use that opportunity. Right, let's build something better.


James Mackey  30:08  

I actually completely agree with you. I think it's something that whether companies want it or not is definitely the direction that we're heading. So particularly in tech. 


I think just one final question, before we jump off is just at a more tactical level, how can companies be successful and thrive in an environment where employees are likely going to be giving notice sooner than maybe anticipated? 


What can companies do to be successful in that model, and to scale and have the growth that they're looking for?


Steve Cadigan  30:44  

Have more discussions with your employees about what their plan is.  Look at their LinkedIn, and do your first interview, we're saying, okay, when you leave the company, what do you want to be doing? 


Have more honest conversations. So you know, if someone's thinking, like, Hey, I've got two years or one year, that if it's, if it's okay with you, then I say, all right, fine, let's agree to that. And then always have a pipeline. 


If you start recruiting when someone leaves, it's too late, just like I tell my friends, hey, if you're looking for a job, after you get fired, it's too late like you got to start, you got to always be looking for talent. And so you know, that's our number two. People want to grow, people want to learn. 


And I think that's the biggest driver of why people are leaving because they think somewhere, they can learn more, grow more, make sure you're filling that hunger and that thirst through rotations, new opportunities, and assignments, because that's what people really want. And if you've got a medium to large size enterprise, you've got different offices, locations, countries, and departments, to feed that. 


So build your own, and expect people are going to go build a talent strategy that expects it. And then keep in touch with your alumni to like, they may come back to you. Right, and or they may be sources of goodwill, referring candidates to you, right? So that's why I said like, we've got to think about creating value beyond just when someone's working for me beyond just an employee looking at more broadly because that whole ecosystem is going to benefit you and be the wind at your back. If you do it right.


James Mackey  32:15  

I couldn't agree more. And this, this has been so much fun. We're coming up on time here, just for our listeners, how can they find you? Where should they follow you online?


Steve Cadigan  32:26  

Great. So I've got a website, Please go there. If you're interested in signing up for me to push you more information or what's on my mind, go there, connect with me on LinkedIn or follow me on LinkedIn if you want to. 


I also have a Tik-Tok channel, which is filled with a series called true stories in corporate America. We're starting a new program where we're going to be asking people to share their stories which I can share on their behalf on Tik-Tok. It's so super fun. 


And also I just show you my book here, it's Workquake. You can buy the book anywhere books are sold. And we sold a tonne on Audible. People are listening to it more than they're buying it. I guess that's what people do. Now. I'm the only guy in the neighborhood that gets a newspaper delivered. One of my friends asked, ``How do you know there are old people in neighborhoods? They get a newspaper delivered. Okay, guilty, guilty as charged. 


But, James, thanks for having me on the show, man. It's really good to see you. And we need to catch up some more.


James Mackey  33:22  

Absolutely. And thanks again for being here. And for everybody tuning in. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the talent acquisition trends and strategy podcast powered by the minds at secure vision. For more info on us, visit us on our website at www.securevision

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